MIRIAM ASKS ERC TO REDUCE POWER RATES

Sen. Miriam Defensor Santiago, chair of the Joint Congressional Power Commission (Powercom) issued instructions to ERC chair Rodolfo Albano to take immediate steps to reduce Meralco rates.

Santiago said that although Powercom has no power to issue orders to ERC, the EPIRA law gives Powercom the function of issuing guidelines to ERC, and to monitor and ensure implementation of the EPIRA, which was intended to lower power rates.

In a privilege speech yesterday, Santiago issued the following guidelines to ERC:

• Resolve within three months, all pending petitions already submitted for resolution, with the end in view of lowering immediately the Meralco power rates;
  
• Uphold consumer protection in resolving the present petition from Meralco and Napocor, requesting permission to pass on to the consumers some P14 billion of the Meralco debt;
  
• Announce immediately a cap on systems losses, lower than the existing 9.5 percent cap;
  
• Order Meralco to list all inclusions in their generation cost;
  
• Order Meralco to show cause why it should not immediately give refunds to its consumers, pursuant to the Supreme Court decisions in cases concerning Meralco income taxation which were apparently passed on to consumers; and
  
• Order Meralco to show cause why it should not immediately give refunds for deposits on billing meters.

In the same privilege speech, Santiago said that the internet website of ABS-CBN, owned by the Lopez group, has committed against her the crimes of blackmail or grave threats, as well as the crime of libel, intended to defeat her candidacy for the International Court of Justice.

Santiago said that the website is guilty of following a scheme or pattern, because a series of derogatory articles against her and Powercom appeared immediately in the website after she chaired a Powercom public hearing to investigate why Meralco power rates are so high, the second highest in Asia.

Santiago chaired the meeting on May 12; the alleged defamatory articles appeared on May 16, 21, 23, and 25.

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LOPEZ FIRM HITS MIRIAM ON WORLD COURT BID

Only weeks after Sen. Miriam Defensor Santiago partly blamed Meralco for high power rates, the ABS-CBN internet website in its top story tried to scuttle her candidacy for International Court of Justice (ICJ) by claiming that “some countries are moving to oppose her . . . , she has not even qualified for the highest court of the country.”

The story claims that “some countries are moving to oppose her,” without naming the countries or giving the reason for the alleged opposition.

The story also claims that “she has not even qualified for the highest court of the country,” referring to the decision of the Judicial and Bar Council not to even consider her nomination because they chose to adopt the policy of considering only incumbent Supreme Court justices.

Santiago recently presided over a televised Joint Congressional Power Commission hearing where she equally blamed Meralco and the National Power Commission (NPC), as well as alleged lax regulation, for the high power rates charged by Meralco.

Both Meralco and ABS-CBN are part of the vast Lopez business empire.

A top official in the Philippine Permanent Mission to the United Nations in New York , alleged that “the negative spin of the news articles obviously affects the campaign since foreign embassies in Manila and the foreign service of other countries would report this to their capitals.”

The source also said that “the article would tremendously affect both the gains achieved by the Philippines in the campaign in the ICJ and its future efforts to preserve such gains to obtain more support.”

Santiago is not running in her own individual capacity, but as official candidate of the Philippines .
“The news article is full of unhelpful conjectures and factual errors,” the source said.

The derogatory item in the ABS-CBN website was published on May 23, only days after the probe on high Meralco rates.

Contacted for comment, Santiago said that the bicameral investigation was part of Powercom duties under the law.

While Santiago is Powercom chair, the co-chair is Rep. Juan Miguel Arroyo, son of President Arroyo, who has been urging Meralco to lower its power rates.

“I will have to take this in stride, because the Philippines has a culture of corruption. A vast business empire such as that of the Lopez family will not hesitate to use its media outlets, even to the point of destroying a national candidature, in order to protect their giant corporate profits,” Santiago said.

Santiago added that at least one newspaper columnist in a national daily had previously hinted that there would be a propaganda campaign against Santiago’s ICJ bid when because the columnist mentioned that her prior bid for another international court was scuttled because Santiago was an Estrada ally at that time.

Santiago added she would consider over the weekend whether she will avail of her options, such as a libel suit or a privilege speech on Monday, or whether she will just “suffer in silence” from the Lopez media firm.

“It is obviously the work of a dirty tricks department so evil that it hardly merits attention. In trying to destroy me, they are also destroying a Philippine national candidature. Sometimes iniquity is its own worst punishment,” she said.

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MIRIAM: JAIL FOR LYING ON POWER RATES

Sen.Miriam Defensor Santiago, chair of the Joint Congressional Power Commission (Powercom) said she would cite for contempt any official of Meralco, NPC, or WESM who fails to prove allegations made during the public hearing on power rates.

“In other words, if I catch them lying under oath, those officials could be fined up to P500,000, and jailed up to six years,” she said.

Santiago said that for her to decide who is lying, she has secured the cooperation of UP professors who are experts in the electric power industry, namely: Profs. Allan Nerves, Rowaldo del Mundo, and Bienvenido Malquisto, from the Electrical and Electronics Engineering College; and Profs. Arthur Cayanan, and Helena Agnes Valderrama from the Business Administration College.

Santiago issued “urgent orders to submit information” to Meralco president Jesus Francisco, NPC president Cyril del Callar, Asst. vice-president Mario Pangilinan of PEMC, and OIC Alejandro Barin of the ERC.

The orders specify particular documents required from each agency, to be submitted 15 days from receipt of the order.

“The first order of the day is to determine the price paid to the IPPs of both Meralco and NPC,” she said.

Santiago said the issue with respect to Meralco is alleged price manipulation, by making it appear that their own IPPs sell at cheaper prices than those charged by NPC and WESM.

The senator said the issue with respect to NPC is that NPC has been passing on to customers actual IPP costs, instead of avoided costs, meaning marginal cost, as provided by law.

“What Meralco and NPC pay to their respective IPPs, sets the reference rate for the power rates paid by consumers. We have to put closure on this IPP issue, otherwise our power rates will be high forever,” she said.

Santiago said that if documents prove that Meralco intentionally made the decisions to favor its own IPPs at the expense of consumers, that would be management abuse which could be a ground to cancel the Meralco franchise.

“It is virtually impossible that Meralco managers did not know that their decisions would result in unconscionable transfer of wealth from consumers to their own pockets. Such alleged mismanagement is punishable,” she said.

“The second order of the day is the alleged NPC manipulation which results in the Meralco billing for WATOU, or weighted average time of use. It appears that the TOU rates of NPC are very high,” she said.

Santiago said a separate hearing will be needed on the issue that NPC is allegedly increasing its prices to create an emergency situation which would allow it to buy fuel, not through competitive bidding, but through negotiation.

“The Senate energy committee has a duty to investigate whether NPC is negotiating with fuel supplies, instead of holding competitive biddings. The related allegation is that NPC is dealing with fly-by-night coal suppliers,” the senator said.

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Transcript of Senator Miriam Defensor Santiago ’s interview

After the Powercom hearing on Meralco’s high electricity rates

Ang Joint Congressional Power Commission or Powercom na may kapangyarihan sa power industry ay at least nagbigay ng dalawang resulta na makatulong para bumaba ang presyo ng kuryente. Una, inutusan namin ang Energy Regulation Commission, ang tagabantay ng Meralco, Transco, at NAPOCOR na hindi dapat payagan ng ERC ang petisyon ng Meralco.

May kasunduan sila na dahil may utang ang Meralco sa NPC at ang NPC naman ay may utang sa Meralco, hindi nalang nila itutuloy ang paghahabol ng utang nila sa isa’t isa kung ‘di ipasa nalang nila sa mga customers. Ang ginawa natin ngayon ay inutusan ang ERC na huwag payagan ang petisyon na iyon dahil nag-utangan sila sa negosyo nila. Walang papel ang taong bayan doon, hindi naman tayo kinonsulta sa mga utang na iyon. Kailangan sundin ang prinsipyo na kung hindi nakisali ang consumer sa desisyon ng management, hindi sila dapat singilin.

That’s called the “just and reasonable principle”. Under that principle, we have ordered the ERC to dismiss the petition of Meralco supported by the NPC to pass on the costs of their mutual debts to the consumer. We do not even know the exact amount, but definitely it will run perhaps to billions.

Pangalawa, nakuha natin kanina na utusan ang ERC na lagyan ng limit ang systems losses na kalakip doon sa billing ng Meralco. Bawat buwan, nakalakip doon sa binabayad natin sa kuryente ang tinatawag natin na systems losses. Ngayon sa ilalim ng batas, dapat may limit yan kung magkanong systems loss ang pwedeng ipasa ng Meralco sa customer. Hanggang ngayon, hindi nila linalagyan ng limit, kaya inutusan natin kanina ang ERC na lagyan ng limit ang systems loss na yun para lumiit din ang pagsingil sa ating consumers.

Who is to blame for the high electricity prices?

Hindi mo masasabi dahil ang aming mga conclusion ay manggagaling sa mga dokumento na hiningi naming ibigay sa komisyon galing sa iba’t ibang mga pinuno ng mga ahensya na may kinalaman sa paghatid ng kuryente. Pero sa ngayon nakikita ko na mayroon talagang mali na ginagawa ang Meralco. Halimbawa, inaamin ng presidente ng Meralco kanina na ang binibili nilang mga metro sa kuryente ay naggagaling din sa kumpanya na ari din ng Meralco at inaamin nila yung ibang systems losses nila ay hindi kasalanan ng mga gumagamit kundi hindi basta dahil teknikal o due to pilferage kaya ang Meralco ang may kasalanan.

Hindi lamang iyon, pati ang Napocor ay may kasalanan din. Mayroon din silang management abuses. At dapat, ang tagabantay o regulator nila na ang ERC ay kahati din dun sa pagtaas ng presyo dahil hindi sapat ang bagsik ng ERC na bantayan at suriin nya ng mabuting mabuti itong pinagpapatong sa ating electric bill kaya hindi mo masasabi talga na iisa lang sa kanila ang may kasalanan. Pare-pareho silang may sala talaga at banding huli, mangangailangan yan ng pagamyenda ng ating batas ngayon na tinatawag na EPIRA law.

How soon will we see the results?

I hope the results will reflect, more or less, 30 days after the 15 days compliance I gave the ERC.

How about Mr. Garcia's proposal to change Meralco's management?

Ewan ko lang kung pwedeng magawa iyon dahil napaka kumplikado nito, sari-saring mga scientific factors ang involve jan. Kaya ang gagawin natin ay hihingi tayo ng tulong ng isang grupo ng mga UP professors na sa ngayon ay nag-aaral kung paano ibaba yung presyo ng kuryente.
How about the proposal to bring down the VAT?

Imposible yun, dahil wala na ngang pera ang gubyerno tapos lahat ng buwis na napatong dun ay gusto nilang tanggalin, e di lahat nalang ng sector ng ekonomiya hihingi ng ganyang pagalis ng VAT.

On Garcia’s proposal to divide the franchise ng Meralco

There’s no problem with that, we already have a model. What used to be the MWSS was divided into two and it did not result into higher water rates. It, in fact made a lot of money for one franchise holder although the other franchise holder did not make much money. Anyway, it resulted in better water supply. So, we in the Commission have no objection if that is his proposal. Ang question lang dun, ay sabi nila ay hindi nila gusto na ang GSIS ay magpapatakbo kung di sila ang maghahanap ng mas magaling na magpapatakbo. Ewan ko lang kung magagawa yan dahil marami kasing pasikut-sikot jan. Sino ang ilalagay mo dyan ay dapat alam niya lahat ng mga relations diyan ng Meralco at ng mga subsidiary companies and all will depend on the price of electricity by that time. Pero kung management efficiency lang ang paguusapan, mukhang may napatunayan kanina sa pagtatanong ng mga senador at mga kongresista na talagang may management inefficiency. Ibig sabihin ay hindi napaaketo ang batas na sabi ay dapat bigyan ng kuryente ang mamamayan sa least cost manner.

Is there a syndicate here?

Una, ang pag-amin ng Meralco na bumibili siya ng sarili niyang mga metro sa sarili nyang kompanya, at least in part. May mga satellite companies ang Meralco kaya nakikinegosyo sya sa sarili niya. You should keep your private business interest at arm’s length from the public interest.

Is Meralco to blame for  the systems loss?

Partly may kasalanan ang ERC, kasi dati may limitasyon yan e, I think it was 9.5 percent tapos na-abolish ang limit na yun and the power was given to the ERC to set the new limits depending on all those factors that I read off, pero hanggang ngayon hindi sila nagseset ng limits kaya parang libre ang Meralco na gumawa ng kanilang limits. Sasabihin nila na pareho ang lahat ng ito at pinayagan ito ng ERC kaya yun naman ang base ko na magsabi na lax ang ERC. Sana kung mas mahigpit sila sa pag implement ng EPIRA, hindi sana tumaas ng ganun ang singil sa kuryente. Hindi ibig sabihin na dahil na-approve na ng ERC e legal na. Maaring may kasalanan din ang ERC at pati sya maparusahan.

Theoretical studies by technical scholars can find out if there has been a violation of the “just and reasonable principle” or violation of the least cost principle. They could be charged criminally under the penal code for combination in restraint of trade kung ang resulta ay tumaas ang binabayaran ng mamamayan o kaya hindi maganda ang resulta sa ekonomiya pwede na siyang violation of combination in restraint of trade. Parang anti-trust law and anti-monopoly law.

MERALCO HONCHOS GET P97M ANNUALLY

Sen. Miriam Defensor Santiago, chair of the Joint Congressional Power Commission (Powercom), said high power rates are caused by apparent management abuse not only in the Manila Electric Co. (Meralco), but also in the National Power Corporation (NPC), and by apparent laxity in the Energy Regulatory Commission (ERC).

“These apparent management abuses and lax regulation are the reasons why the Philippines has one of the highest power rates in the world, second only to Japan in Asia,” Santiago said.

NPC is the generator, Meralco is the distributor, and ERC the regulator of the power industry, with all three and other sectors falling under the bicameral Powercom’s power to “set the guidelines and overall framework to monitor and ensure proper implementation” of R.A. No. 3196, the Electric Power and Reform Act of 2001.

“Consumers are paying for the high annual salaries of the Meralco chief executive officer and seven other senior executive officers which in 2008 will total some P97 million. The officers and directors as a group will get some P170 million. This appears to be management abuse,” Santiago said.

Santiago listed “apparent management abuses” by the three agencies as follows:

• Meralco is reportedly buying electricity from NPC and WESM (Wholesale Electricity Spot Market) during peak periods, when prices are high, resulting in high pass-through generation charges to its consumers.
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• Meralco and NPC entered into an agreement to ask ERC to allow Meralco to pass on to its consumers its unpaid debts to NPC.
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• Power rates are high in Luzon, than in Visayas and Mindanao .
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• NPC apparently manipulates its rates based on Time-Of-Use (TOU) which are very high, and which are passed on to consumers.
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• NPC apparently gives preferential rates to economic zone consumers, but passes on the cost of the discounts to its other consumers.
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• NPC charges its consumers for its revenue requirements, which seem to include its P7 billion bad debts.
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• NPC buy its power from IPPs (Independent Power Producers) but at higher rates than the avoided cost, or the marginal cost, and then passes on the higher rates to the consumers
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• ERC has neglected its duty to set the new caps on recoverable systems loss, and use questionable “performance-based regulation,” valuation of assets, and benchmarking methodology.

But the senator said there is no basis for the charge that Meralco has been passing on to its consumers high system losses, because Meralco has apparently been absorbing P1 billion every year in system losses.

Santiago said the possible penalties for management abuse can be legislative, corporate, and criminal.

Meralco operates under a franchise, meaning a right conferred by the government to engage in specific business, including the rights necessary for public utility companies to carry on their operations.

“The legislative remedy provided by the Constitution is for Congress to amend or repeal the Meralco franchise, as required by the common good,” she said.

The senator added that the corporate remedy is to penalize the responsible Meralco managers, by voting them out in the next stockholders’ meeting this month.

“The criminal remedy is to file cases in court against the responsible Meralco and NPC officers for the crime called ‘combination in restraint of trade,’ which refers to any conspiracy ‘for the purpose of making transactions prejudicial to lawful commerce, or of increasing the market prices,’” she said.

Santiago ordered the three agencies to submit replies to her long list of technical questions for each agency, and to attach the proper documents.

She said that all replies and documents will be the basis of the report and recommendation that Powercom will submit to Congress.

Santiago also ordered that a set of replies and documents shall be given to a team of UP professors who are at present conducting a study for a paper to be titled “Anatomy of Power Rates in the Philippines .”

The Powercom report will have to analyze technical, financial and regulatory factors that contribute to the present high power rates. It is complex, labyrinthine, and often subterranean,” she said.

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Transcript of Senator Miriam Defensor Santiago ’s interview

On today’s Senate foreign relations committee hearing

The resource panel synonymously endorsed Senate concurrence with two groups of treaties. One group consisted of the Mutual Legal Assistance treaties. This means that in criminal proceedings, the Philippines together with other country will perform certain services, if necessary, in connection with a criminal proceeding in that other country. For example, if they are looking for some witnesses, certain documents, if they want to see certain assets in the criminal proceeding in that country.

The resource panel also unanimously recommended concurrence with the Avoidance of Double Taxation Treaties. There are already 36 of such treaties, so I foresee this will be easily concurred in by the Senate. They are very non-controversial. It will encourage foreign direct investment because a capitalist will not come to the Philippines if his income will be taxed both in his home country and in the Philippines . We will have to forego or waive the taxes on that foreigner, but in compensation, that foreigner will be encouraged to provide foreign direct investment here. We are just following the path we already set with the 36 other Avoidance of Double Taxation Treaties.

The RP-Spain MLAT is different in a sense that even if the act which is involved in the proceedings does not constitute a crime in the Philippines , still the Philippines will be obliged to provide legal assistance. That is not a provision in the other treaties. But, I also noted that sometimes this is the result of negotiations. We cannot really have our own way all the time during the negotiation process. It doesn’t really bother me as long as the DFA will give me a written memorandum explaining why Spain took that recalcitrant stand. Possibly, they said either you include this provision or we don’t have a treaty. Sometimes we have good grounds based on their own peculiar circumstances.

On the Powercom hearing on Monday (12 May 2008)

I expect it to be a battle of titans. I will ask Mr. Winston Garcia of the GSIS to enumerate as briefly as possible the ways in which he thinks Meralco has been mismanaged such as to result in very high electricity rates. The JCPC or Powercom is not really concerned with the ownership issue. That is the business of business. But we in the JCPC are concerned with the issue of very high electricity rates. Pitong taon na ang ating Epira na gumawa ng pagbabago sa ating industriya ng kuryente, pero pagkatapos ng pitong taon, hindi pa rin nakamit yung tanging layunin na ibaba ang binabayad sa kuryente. Ibig sabihin lahat kami ay failure. Epira is a failure. The Senate is a failure. The executive branch is a failure.

Bakit? Dahil ang Meralco, dapat pasabugin iyan. Pugad iyan ng mga sindikato. Mas grabe pa iyan sa Bureau of Customs. Baka hindi alam iyan ng may-ari. Yun ang basehan kung bakit sinabi ng ibang senador na Meralco lang ang makakapagpatakbo sa Meralco. Ang ibig sabihin lang niyan ay napakaraming pasikot-sikot diyan. That is a conglomeration of mafias. I am sure, although I may not have the evidence, that there is a crime involved. That is a crime of a combination of a restraint in trade or monopoly. That is punishable under the Penal Code.

In America , ang anti-trust laws nila ay isang buong encyclopedia. Sa atin, isang provision lang ng Penal Code, hindi pa ginagamit ng Department of Justice. Maybe it is time that the DOJ made an example of Meralco employees and officials. I am not particularly talking about the Lopez group, they are simply the owners. Sometimes the owner just participates in the profits and allows other people to run their business. But, from the way we have seen how Epira cannot effectively lower the price of electricity, I am reasonably certain that there are criminal syndicates operating in Meralco, and they are all punishable for violating the Penal Code against combinations in the restraint of trade.

Sinasabi ng iba na ang kuryente na binibili niya hindi lamang sa Napocor kundi sa iba pang independent power producers (IPP) na pag-aari rin pala ng Meralco. Kaya binibilhan niya ang sarili din niya. That is self-dealing. That is inimical to the public interest, apart from being a criminal offense.

Maliban diyan, may isa pang batikos. Lahat daw ng materyales sa industriya ng kuryente ay binibili ng Meralco sa kumpanya ng pag-aari rin niya. Ang mga poste, electrical wiring, electric meters, and all other components of the delivery system for electric power. Tingnan natin ang mga batikos. So far, all we have are accusations.

Basically all these accusations are intended to wrest control of Meralco, and it is no concern of ours here in the Powercom. Our concern here is very basic: Bakit napakamahal ng kuryente?

Ipalista natin kay Mr. Garcia o sa kanyang representative ang lahat ng argumento niya, at makikita natin diyan kung ano ang dahilan kung bakit mataas ang presyo ng kuryente, at pagkatapos ay ipasagot natin sa Meralco. Sa ganoong paraan, makikita natin who is making more sense.

Plus, mayroong mga lupon sa electric power industry na nagmamaniobra na hanggang ngayon na ang ating kuryente ay manggaling sa coal, dahil ang laki ng ipinapatong nila kung magbenta sila ng coal sa Napocor. Titingnan din natin iyan pagkatapos nito. Kaya maari na ang imbestigasyon sa Senado sa Lunes ay matutuloy sa kasunod pang Lunes tungkol naman sa coal.

Ang resulta nito ay lalagyan natin ng proper provisions ang Epira law, which is in the process now of being amended by the Senate.

Malipat man natin ang pag-aari o pagpapatakbo ng Meralco galing sa pribadong kamay papunta sa gobyerno, meron ba tayong garantiya na magiging mas maganda ang pagpapatakbo nito o magiging mas mababa ng presyo ng kuryente, dahil kung bababa agad ang presyo ng kuryente, lahat tayo at kami sa Powercom ay pabor na magkaroon ng ownership o management takeover. There is no such guarantee, kasi maski sinong commissioner mo diyan, talagang kikita at kikita ang mga sindikato kasi matagal na sila doon at mahirap silang kuwestiyunin. Marami silang pera kaya sisiraan nila agad ang bagong tagahawak ng sistema nila hanggang magresign na lang ang pobre. Kaya dapat diyan sana , meron tayong administrator ng Meralco who is very street smart. Otherwise he will only be an office technocrat and he will definitely fail the expectations of the public. We need a graftbuster.

Transcript of Senator Miriam Defensor Santiago ’s interview

On Malacanang’s move to lower electricity rates by taking over Meralco

Remember that the Supreme Court has already ruled that Meralco has overbilled its costumers. It is incumbent of the government to make sure that overbilling does not recur. Otherwise, we would be exercising a futile protest over post facto actions that are prejudicial to the consumer.

As chair of the Powercom, I can summon the chair of the ERC only after he has acted on the matter. We in Congress could not dictate how the ERC, which is an executive agency, should act on the matter.

Our position is this: the EPIRA law, for which the Powercom was established, clearly states as its mandate the lowering of electricity prices in the Philippines , which is one of the highest in Asia . Therefore, if state control of Meralco will result in lower electric costs, the Congress is bound by law to support that move.

In fact, I think Meralco issued a statement today that it will not hinder these moves, and will in fact support them. So it is just a question of methodology, there is no lowering electric prices because both sides appear to agree on that.

The methodology however is tricky. There are technical terms that need to be translated to the public to explain them in detail.

Normally, under the capitalist philosophy, the least participation of government if private business the better. But because the state has expressed official concern over the electric power industry by passing the EPIRA law, we shall allow matters with respect to electricity rates to be decided by the private sector based on good corporate management practices. But if the result for the consumer is significantly higher rates, then we just have to step in.

Transcript of Sen. Miriam Defensor Santiago’s Interview
13 December 2007

On the JCPC hearing on the sale of PNOC-EDC

We are on the verge of losing our patience because the issue simply is how much the EDC has contributed to the national treasury. We already know how much it was sold for: some P58 billion. If it (EDC) contributed more than that to the national treasury, then why sell it? Because then it would be able to make more money than it is being sold for in the very near future. They (the government panel) cannot give us a ballpark figure. These are huge amounts of money and we are entitled to an explanation why we are selling a profitable government enterprise.

During the time of President Aquino, the sales of government assets were confined only to those that were non-performing assets or government corporations that were losing money. We never sold any profit-making assets because if we sold it to a private owner he would pay today and we would have today the amount that he paid, but the entire revenue stream or the entire potential earnings of the enterprise would have absolutely stopped. It would be like looking only at the short-term but not at the long-term. It would be trading instant gratification for future security.

(But) the most basic problem is why they didn’t inform us that they were selling it. All the while we thought that just trying to prepare for the sale of certain assets of the EDC like its geothermal fields and steam sales agreements. We didn’t have any inkling that they were selling sixty percent of EDC which would make government lose control of a geothermal firm that is considered one of the first in the whole world. We are number one in steam sales technology and number two in steam sales production. Now PNOC-EDC, through the chair of the Privatization Council (the Finance Secretary) and the president of PNOC-EDC himself, wants to sell this valuable asset for what?

Plus, I have a personal concern on why did the winning bidder, Red Vulcan, bid P 58.5 billion, which is P13.5 billion higher than the floor price. In other words, the Privatization Council and PNOC-EDC undervalued the valuable assets of our government. Even the buyer himself admitted that the floor price was an undervalue of the asset. Why make it easy to sell something that is making money? Their argument there is very weak, and that is that now it (EDC) is in its peak price and we will never be able to sell it in the same amount again. How did they know that? Do they have any fact-based data to support their argument?

In the case of the JCPC, we have one particular instance in the past when, owing to the intervention of a public official, a sale that has already taken place, was cancelled or aborted… it turned out that the cancellation of the government asset sale, I’m talking about Malampaya EC, was correct because eventually the price of oil rose from $30/barrel to $100/barrel, so the income from Malampaya rose as well. If we have not stopped that sale at that time, we would have lost a valuable asset forever, and it is now making a lot of money for the government. That is more or less the same situation as EDC.

Can the JCPC still block the sale?

[The sale] has not yet been implemented. In a sense it has been consummated because the winning bidder has been announced, and was able to make full payment in cash. The next thing that should happen is that it should now take over control of EDC. But not if the JCPC can help it. If we need to go to court, then we will go court. But first we will give the Secretary of Finance and the PNOC President, the two officers responsible for the sale, an opportunity to explain themselves. What I am doing here is I’m making a compilation of all the questions that were raised today and I will give them until next week to give me a specific answer for each question. They were saying this morning that they don’t have the exact figures. We find that hard to believe. You would have at least some rounded or ballpark figures in your head if you are dealing with an amount as big as P 168 billion.

The power of the JCPC is to monitor the privatization of the power industry and to ensure compliance of the Epira. Epira provides that we must optimize the value of our assets that are being sold. If we find that the value has not optimized and we therefore reach the conclusion that the law has not been followed, we would have good legal grounds for ordering them to withdraw their approval, just as they did in Malampaya.

You insinuated earlier that somebody must have received commissions and kickbacks

It cannot be helped because these people could at least have given the senators and the congressmen the basic courtesy of notice. Sa tingin ko may kumita dito. Bakit mo ililihim kung wala kang itinatago? Napag-usapan na ito sa JCPC noon pa. Sinabi namin na huwag na nating ibenta ang shares of stock o control ng EDC, ibenta na lang natin ang mga assets niya. Nagulat na lang kaming lahat na ibebenta na pala. That is mainly the burden of the JCPC. We are trying to understand why they didn’t give us due notice and wait for us. What is the rush, since the sale price of P58.5 billion is meant to go only to make up for the budget deficit. That is not the function of the Privatization Council or the Department of Finance.

They could not even answer the question [how much the government lost in the sale of EDC]. I want to know how much has EDC given to the national treasury. At first they said P71 billion. Kita mo na: binenta natin ng P58 billion ang kumikita ng P71 billion. Tapos ang sabi nila “ Mali pala kami, meron pa pala kaming ide-deduct diyan.” Ang mga kumisyon daw ng mga broker at underwriter sa kanilang benta. Hindi raw kumpleto ang listahan nila. Iyon na nga ang problema, may mga kumikita nang hindi alam ng publiko.

On citing Transco President Arthur Aguilar for contempt

I cited him for contempt because pinag-uusapan dito kung maayos ang pagbenta ng Transco. Biro mo, presidente siya ng Transco hindi siya dumating, nagpadala lang ng vice president niya dahil nagpreside daw siya ng nationwide bidding ng mga subordinate at regional managers niya. Pinag-uusapan ang P160 billion ng gobyerno dito, at mas gusto niya na makihalubilo sa mga subordinates niya. He is not giving the JCPC the proper courtesy of at least his physical appearance.

I gave him 3 days to file a motion for reconsideration, but I have already said that we will not find it acceptable that he explains himself by merely saying that “I am sorry but I am presiding over a nationwide conference.” E di magpa-preside siya ng ibang tao at bumalik siya ng hapon. Anong deperensya? Anong problema? But we will ask him to explain in writing what the details of (the sale of) Transco are.

My reading of the JCPC law is that we can detain or imprison him for less than one year, and we can impose a fine of less than P50,000.

On Ibazeta’s defense on charges of conflict of interest over the sale of Transco

Myself as chair and Rep. Arroyo as co-chair the explanation to be reasonable and therefore valid. He (Ibazeta) is saying that “There is no conflict of interest. I am chair of a terminal services corporation and we are here dealing with the power sector, so I don’t see any conflict between terminal services and the power sector.” Besides, he inhibited himself from the bidding process because of the ethical question that has been raised. Unless there is further evidence, we find that he has acquitted himself successfully on the charge of conflict of interest. Whether there is any irregularity in the bidding process itself or in the projected dire consequences of the sale to this winning bidder, that will be taken up by another committee.

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Transcript of Senator Miriam Defensor Santiago’s interview
12 December 2007

On the survey results that President Arroyo is the most corrupt Philippine president

I am filing a resolution, possibly by tomorrow morning, to investigate not only the particular survey firm but all major survey firms that have their results published in the media. I would like to know 1) who pays for these surveys. I am not buying to the claim that these surveys are not commissioned. Who is funding them? You cannot just conduct a professional scientific survey without funding. So how come these survey firms claim that they are not commissioned? Do you really mean to tell me that a private commercial company, meaning to say a profit company will take the bother and expense of taking a survey and losing money for the effort just to gain a headline? That does not make business sense.

And 2) I am not about to be inveigled to the belief that these survey results are accurate. Apart from the usual criticisms of accuracy of surveys, I don’t that any right-minded scientific professional survey firm will conduct a one-sided survey. There will always be a positive part of the survey. For example, it may ask “Who is the most corrupt president?” but it should ask also “Who do you think is the most successful economically among the presidents we’ve had?”

My unconfirmed report is that a member of the opposition commissioned the survey and was able to convince a major daily to use it as a banner headline. This is not a coincidence. Also, I would like to know how these survey firms support themselves, for normally it by soliciting patrons from the business world, but generally they do not concentrate on politics. In other countries you will find that survey firms are active only during actual campaigns, and they try as much as possible to objective, that is to say present two sides to issue so that they can elicit credibility. I know for a fact, as a public official and as an ordinary citizen, that these surveys are not highly thought of precisely because they are so biased in their reporting.

There is a specific name circulating among administration allies. We were exchanging news and information this morning in the CA hearing. Word does get around; you cannot keep this under wraps. Someone will always tell who was the person who was behind a certain survey.

All you have to do is sit and think for one second: who is the right-minded person who will go out of his way to conduct a scientifically-accepted survey with all the expense it incurs without being paid for it? Possibly the churches, whose motives will not be suspect. Or the academics, because they are known to do these foolhardy ventures (in a business sense). Otherwise, a commercial company will not undertake this kind of non-profit activity.

I am outraged as an ordinary reader or part of the audience that I should be presented with biased and one-sided news.

Could he/she be a former president?

This survey firm has always been associated with a former president. I would not say that there is a direct connection between that former president and this firm. I do know however that there is an opposition figure who commissioned the survey and paid the firm… He is very slippery. It (the survey) does serve the purpose of the opposition to put President Arroyo down.

On the Powercom hearing tomorrow

At the hearing of the JCPC tomorrow, we will look into 1) the explanation for the auction and sale of the EDC, and its possible illegality; 2) the accusations hurled by the opposition against the validity of the auction to the successful bidder of Transco; and 3) the accusations recently made by a congressman of alleged overpricing of coal on the part of NAPOCOR.

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News Release

27 November 2007

MIRIAM HITS MULTIMILLION KICKBACKS IN STATE ASSETS SALE

Sen. Miriam Defensor Santiago, co-chair of the Joint Congressional Power Commission, expressed concern over multimillion kickbacks for certain public officials pushing for immediate sale of government assets in the electric power industry involving billions of pesos.

“The Epira law orders privatization of the power industry, but we must make haste slowly. If we don’t watch out, those sales could adversely result both in higher electric rates paid by consumers, and in multimillion kickbacks and commissions for certain public officials involved,” Santiago said.
Santiago stopped yesterday apparent efforts by PNOC-EDC president Aquino to secure JCPC approval of the Geothermal Resources Sales Contract for Palinpinon 1 and 2, and for Tongonan 1.
Aquino reportedly tried to convince JCPC co-chair Rep. Juan Miguel Arroyo and the JCPC House panel members to secure JCPC approval before December 5, the date set for bidding of the geothermal fields.

Aquino is already under fire from Santiago and JCPC, for allegedly going behind the backs of the JCPC and securing approval for privatization of the National Transmission Corporation (Transco) from Finance Secretary Gary Teves, as chair of the Privatization Council.

In her letter to Rep. Arroyo, Santiago refused to call an emergency meeting of the JCPC to approve the geothermal contracts, because the price for electricity is set in US dollars instead of Phippine pesos.

“This is the very reason why electricity in the Philippines is one of the highest in the world. Under the contracts, the consumers will again be hit by so-called automatic adjustment mechanisms, which will raise the price of electricity,” Santiago said.

Santiago also denounced the provision in the contracts giving so-called performance incentives for PNOC-EDC in the controversial contracts.

“The performance incentives that PNOC-EDC is giving to itself will of course increase the price of electricity,” Santiago said.

Santiago further hit the contracts, because they index indigenous geothermal resources with coal.

“This indexing has no rational basis and would again give windfall profits to PNOC-EDC, at the expense of the consumers,” the senator said.

Santiago insisted that the controversial issues in the contracts should be fully studied first by the new JCPC members.

“One public hearing, without prior study by the new composition of the JCPC, will not redound to the national interest. The Epira mandate to privatize does not preclude full study of the implications and consequences of each contract proposed by PNOC-EDC,” Santiago said in her letter to Arroyo.

The senator told the Senate media that PNOC-EDC “is becoming suspicious,” because it wants to reach fast-break approvals of multibillion contracts which could involve multimillion kickbacks.

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TRANSCRIPT OF SENATE MEDIA INTERVIEW WITH SEN. MIRIAM DEFENSOR SANTIAGO

26 November 2007

On the conflict of interest in the Transco sale

The crux here is that the president of the government agency which is in charge of selling the National Transmission Corporation (Transco), a billion-peso company, is suffering from a prohibited conflict of interest, in the sense that he is an officer of several corporations owned by one of the part owners of a bidder for the government agency. But we must put this charge in context. That is the reason why I, as chair of the Senate panel, and Rep. Juan Miguel Arroyo, as chair of the House panel, of the Joint Congressional Power Commission, which has the power of
control and supervision over the sale of these electric power assets of the government, are first
asking these government officials to explain if they have violated the law. There is a violation of law when the person who is supposed to sign or approve the contract is himself, or through a board, group, or a panel of the government, might have a financial, material, or pecuniary interest [in the contract]. In this case, the allegation is that the president of PSALM, a government agency, was a former member of the board of directors of several companies owned by Mr. Enrique Razon, who is part owner of a company which is one of the qualified bidders. So there is a defense on the part of Mr. Ibazeta if he can show that pursuant to law he divested himself of any interest in the Razon corporations, then there is no violation of law. The fact that he used to be an officer of any of those corporations does not make it illegal if after his appointment he resigned from the position or he sold his shares of stock within the period provided by law, 30 days for resignation and 60 days for divestment of interest.

Furthermore, we have to put it into context that the complaint is being filed by disgruntled bidders who did not make it in the cut. When there’s a public bidding, there is a prequalification process. You weed out those who are qualified and those who are not. And these two objectors, who belong to the failed bidders, are not exactly strangers to the power game in Manila. One is the brother of a congressman, Mr. Zamora. The other one, Mr. Ocampo, used to be a public official. Although there is no presumption of innocence in this case because the law expressly provides that there is a presumption of prohibited interest, the person is given a chance to prove that there is no such conflict because he either resigned or he divested himself. We have to wait for his reply in the name of fairness and justice before we make any serious charges. Senators Pimentel and Madrigal are expressing concern over the alleged conflict of interest. This is what has prompted the JCPC, of which I am co-chair, to require the written explanation from Mr. Ibazeta.

On the schedule of the JCPC hearing on the Transco sale

Now we are entering budget week. Under Senate rules, we cannot hold committee or any other hearing when Session is in order. Since we have sessions morning and afternoon, we are prohibited from holding public hearings this week. The budget hearings may even be extended next week. I have to go from December 1 to 7 to Europe as part of the delegation for the President’s state visit there. The earliest we can set the hearing [on the Transco sale] is on December 13. We shall then be anticipating the presence of two public officials who are now in the hot seat. The first one is Finance Secretary Teves, as chair of the privatization council which approved the sale of the Energy Development Corporation without notice to the JCPC. The Epira law provides that to privatize our government corporation in this particular case, we should sell the generating plants packaged to the steam sales agreement. That this methodology prescribed by the law. Now we hear that the privatization council has approved of the sale by a means other than that provided by law. We had asked Secretary Teves to make an urgent appearance and give an explanation. The second one is Mr. Ibazeta because of the charge of conflict of interest. There are two hot officials who will have to come to the Senate on December 13.

The bidding is on December 12. It will not necessarily be the declared a failure just because there might be conflict of interest on the part of the president of PSALM. Assuming for the sake of argument that that is the case, the bidding will not necessarily result to a failed bid. Remember that we in the JCPC are very anxious that this bidding procedure should now be concluded because in the past we spent a lot of time going over three bidding processes, all of which were declared failures, mostly for the reason that there was only one successful pre-qualified bidder. Pursuant to the philosophy of Epira, which is to sell all assets concerning the power industry to private owners, we want to sell at a good market price the Transco. But we want to make sure that the sale is pursuant to the Epira.

On Sen. Mar Roxas’ election as president of the Liberal Party

It is no secret that Sen. Roxas was elected president of the Liberal Party today in anticipation of his presidential candidacy as official standard-bearer of LP for 2010. By Wednesday, his major rival in the presidency as of the moment, Senate President Manny Villar, is also holding his own show of power, to mark the 100th anniversary of the Nacionalista Party, which is the oldest political party in our country, also in anticipation of his own presidential candidacy. For a while there it looks like a Villar-Roxas race. But now, former President Estrada tour within Metro Manila, where he is reportedly getting crowds of the masses, has prompted media titillation with his public entertainment of the possibility that he might run for president. Then it might become a three-cornered fight. In that case, all bets will be off. It will be three multibillionaires fighting each other and all the rest will have the capacity of ants in the presence of three elephants.

On Sen. Loren Legarda and Vice President Noli de Castro running for President in 2010

They are ants. (Laughter.) When the elephants sneeze, the ants will catch pneumonia. Because it is now a given that you cannot run for president unless you have at least P1 billion, and your chances increase in multiples of tens of billions. The surveys will not count for very much apart from the usual cynicism among the public about the accuracy of those surveys.

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Transcript of the interview with Sen. Miriam Defensor Santiago after the Joint Congressional Power Commission hearing

22 November 2007

On the JCPC’s position on the Steam Sales Agreement between PSALM/NPC and PNOC-EDC

The Joint Congressional Power Commission will pass a resolution requesting the Secretary of Finance who sits as chair of the Privatization Council to come to the Powercom perhaps next week to the Senate and explain why did that council approve the sale of PNOC-EDC considering that this commission has already indicated for the record for the presence of the heads of the power sector that we do not want PNOC-EDC to be sold. Number one, under the EPIRA law, it is the only entity in the government mandated to explore and develop indigenous sources of energy. So in our view, the sale, if it proceeds, will be a violation of EPIRA. It would therefore be illegal, and it that sense, might be a ground for action before our courts.

Number two, we oppose the sale because, as we’ve already said in 2005 in a resolution passed by the commission, there is no objection to the statement or the finding that PNOC-EDC is number one in the world in terms of steam technology and number two in the world in terms of geothermal capacity. It is earning at least P600 million annually, and this income will tend to rise because under a law the price of gas is indexed to the price of oil. The price of oil has risen from $35 per barrel to nearly $100 per barrel. And under Philippine law, if the price of oil rises, the price of gas correspondingly rises as well. Under that law, it is predictable that the P600 million annual income of PNOC-EDC will correspondingly rise.

Lastly, it is said that it is the most profitable venture of government. The argument that we should sell when it is profitable might be relevant in a business environment but we are talking of a policy environment. What is the national policy? Geothermal energy as an alternative source of energy should be sustainable in our country. If we sell this to the private sector, it is the private sector that will make money, not our government. Also it is said that since the privatization council already has approved the sale, we might lose credibility to our foreign investors. But yet, there is a countervailing opinion in the international business community that our economy will prove not as strong as we claim if we depend in a one-off sale to cover the budget deficit which should be logically covered by increased revenues from the Bureau of Internal Revenue and the Bureau of Customs. For all of these reasons, we are giving the Secretary of Finance an opportunity to air his side before the Powercom decides on more coercive measures to insist that PNOC-EDC should stay within government ownership and control.

There was a spirited defense on the sale by the President of PNOC-EDC, Mr. Paul Aquino, and we fully appreciate his arguments. However, it was the unanimous consensus of the commission of all 14 members that his arguments are invalid arguments. They are effective for a business organization, but not for the running of government. We do not want to take drastic measures at this point against those responsible, but our feeling is there has been no proper courtesy extended to the Powercom.

The JCPC is no ordinary committee; it is a commission. In effect, under the EPIRA law which created it, this commission is independent of its own chambers, whether the Senate or the House of Representatives. So it is an extremely powerful commission. When the commission expresses an opinion, and in fact passes a resolution, it is highly impudent of the executive branch—I am not talking of the President—to take action contrary to a resolution of such an elevated legislative group as the Commission. Since they already knew that we were already convinced that there should be no sale, why did they not even bother to formally inform us that they were considering this very same sale in the Privatization Council; we have to learn about it during the recent budget hearing.

The resolution will state that we view it as an illegality, although we will try and work out the proper language so it will not come across as too harsh or threatening because all three branches should always work in harmony since that is the best way to advance the cause of government. But there is no denying that the Powercom is extremely upset about this news particularly since the highest bid was approved yesterday. However, today is the deadline for the issuance of the notice of award and November 30 is the closing date when the winning bidder is required to make a full payment of its bid. So we still have time. We, in our resolution, imply that there is a need to suspend the proceeding of the privatization process, and in effect to give the Powercom at least notice to consider any step as drastic as selling off what has already been described as the crown jewel of our economy.

We considered all arguments. As chairperson of the commission, I already read out my own summary of all arguments in favor of and against privatization. We were hoping that that they would show that government earnings would increase with the sale, but it won’t. There is no certainty; all prices are increasing. Therefore, gas prices will increase as well. so why are we selling an asset in the process of making even more money than it has in the past, and its income-generating abilities have never been in question? Why are we selling it? And who will promote and develop indigenous sources of energy? The Department of Energy testified that it does not have funds for that function since the mandate was very clearly given to the PNOC-EDC by EPIRA law. That will create a vacuum in our energy plans for the future. That would be highly irresponsible. It is not the mandate of the DOF to raise revenues through privatization. What would the international investment community think of a government that seeks to balance off its budget by selling off its assets? [By doing so] Our government will lose even more credibility than the loss of credibility that might occur if there is investor backlash owing to the suspension or withdrawal of the private sale.

I believe that this problem was caused by the confusion in the minds of the officials of PNO-EDC, the DOF and the Privatization Council. They were confused between making identification between raising money and the promotion of indigenous sources of energy. They just wanted to make money as quickly as possible. But our assumption here in Powercom is to think of the future, not only of the short range, intermediate, also of the long term consequences of the loss of PNOC-EDC. That is what really bothers us. I don’t think that the Powercom will allow that to happen.

What may be the punishment for officials if they are found violating laws with the sale of PNOC-EDC?

We can hold the Secretary of Finance in contempt and punish him. Number two, is we can file a case in the Supreme Court and ask for a TRO on the ground that the sale is a violation of law. Three, we can appeal to the President to withdraw the approval. But we don’t want to go into those things yet. In the spirit of interdepartmental courtesy and avoid conflict between two branches of government, it would be best if they just defer to the decision of the Powercom. And then we’ll take it up from there after the next hearing.

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Breaking News

12 October 2006

SOLONS SEEK HALT TO POWER PRICE HIKE

Sen. Miriam Defensor Santiago, chair of the Joint Congressional Power Commission (Powercom), said at yesterday’s public hearing (October 12) that the Bicameral Oversight Committee is prepared to “take drastic measures” to stop the anticipated price increase in electricity this coming December.

“If it becomes necessary, we might order a halt to the commercial operation of the Wholesale Electricity Spot Market (WESM),” Santiago said.

However, Santiago cautioned the public to keep an open mind on whether the recent price increases in the third month of the market’s operation is a result of manipulation, or merely “part of the learning curve of the market.”

“It is possible that the government agencies might have lost a lot of money in the first two months of the market, and that is why they try to increase their prices over on the third month,” she said.

Santiago was referring to the Power Sector Assets and Liabilities Management Corp. (PSALM) under President Nieves Osorio, and to the National Power Corp. (Napocor) under President Cyril de Callar.

“It is highly possible that these two agencies were bidding low during the first two months so that their power plants could be dispatched, thus incurring big losses. So in compensation, they might have tried to increase their price offer on the third month, thus causing the spike in prices,” the senator said.

Santiago said that other government agencies might be to blame for the rising prices.

“The Energy Regulatory Commission (ERC) is also suspect, because it has not yet completed the competition rules which have been pending for three years,” she said.

Santiago added that the Philippine Electricity Market Corp. (PEMC) under President Lasse Holopinen is also suspect, because it immediately leaked to the media its investigation about the alleged price manipulation.

“Consistent with market rules, it is correct for PEMC to conduct the investigation through its surveillance committee. But this should have been kept quiet until the findings were conclusive,” Santiago said.

Santiago said the present market problems are partly caused by the failure of Napocor to privatize its Luzon generation assets, which does not even reach five percent, and by the Napocor’s failure to secure bilateral contracts.

“If evidence before the Powercom establishes that there was intentional price manipulation, then we have to punish those responsible. On the other hand, if the unusual price increase was simply part of the learning curve, then the public announcement of the investigation by the market operator would have jeopardized the privatization program under the Epira Law,” she said.

Santiago told media that the main purpose of the hearing was to hear the side of the accuser, PEMC, and the side of the accused, PSALM and NPC.

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Breaking News

7 October 2006

MIRIAM ORDERS BICAMERAL PROBE OF BILLION-PESO POWER MARKET

Sen. Miriam Defensor Santiago, chair of the bicameral Joint Congressional Power Commission or Powercom, said the oversight commission will meet next week, October 12, Thursday afternoon, to investigate charges of alleged price manipulation that allegedly caused sudden spikes in Luzon power bills.

Santiago also raised the alarm that the Power Sector Assets Liabilities and Management Corp. (PSALM), and National Power Corp. (NPC) might be losing billions of pesos in the spot market.

“We in government must act very fast because investor confidence in privatization, as well as public trust in the spot market as a device for bringing down power prices, are both hemorrhaging,” the senator said.

Santiago said that “there is cause for concern” over escalating prices in the Philippine wholesale electricity spot market, known as WESM.

“In the first trading month which was June, biddings resulted in an average price of P2.72 per kiloWatt hour (kWh), in the second month it rose again, and now in the third month it is P4.853 per kWh. This is unreasonably high,” Santiago said.
Santiago said the Powercom probe will focus on PSALM which owns the NPC power plants and is the de facto administrator of all NPC power plants.

“PSALM is the dominant market player, because it controls at least 50 percent of Luzon generation capacity,” the senator said.

At a Powercom hearing last August, Santiago had already raised the issue that NPC might be losing a lot of money, since it generates power at P5 per kWh, but sold it in the spot market at only P2.72 per kWh in the first month.

At that meeting two months ago, Santiago had already noted for the record that: “If the average price of generation is used as indicator of the real market price, then we can conclude that NPC’s generation cost is really high.”

Santiago said the fears raised over possible price manipulation in the market are “well-founded.”

“PSALM has market power, and may have been tempted to manipulate spot prices. But – and this is a big but – there are also other market players who might be engaged in so-called ‘gaming,’ because they know that NPC / PSALM might have been losing billions in the spot market,” Santiago said.

The senator said that there are several factors which influence spot prices, notably the cost of producing electricity, which varies from one electric plant to another.

Santiago said the focus of the Powercom probe will be PSALM’s trading decisions in the last month.

“We need to act very fast, because this allegation of price manipulation in the spot market tends to erode investor confidence in the privatization of the power sector,” she said.

The senator said it is “premature” to order the temporary suspension of WESM as called for by certain business leaders.

“Under the Rules of Court, PSALM and DOE are entitled to the presumption that official duty has been regularly performed. It is for the Powercom hearing to determine whether there is evidence to overthrow this presumption.” Santiago said.

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